We
would blow the whistle and yell foul and say to Freud, stick to your
psychology and explain it in terms of the behavior of the child and
the behavior of the adults. You seem no longer to be interested in
explaining either behaviorally or even chemically or looking at the
human phenomena as impossible to separate the two. . . . as an
interaction model rather than as a separate Descartian model. I think
that understanding that would be helpful to me . . . more empirical
than rational.
Dr.
Graves:
You see – I understand what you hear, but as far as I am
concerned, I’m just trying to rationalize this mess of data I’ve
got. I’ve never even given a hoot or howler to the thoughts as to
whether it was Descartes who said this or that or anything else. I set
out because I was upset about the conflict and I got more upset and to
get that monkey off my
back. I had to do something. Soon I just got tired of that monkey
because he was getting too heavy to carry and so when this system came
along it explained the data. Now, you may go back and relate it to or
say that it is different from Descartes’ model . . . but I have
nothing of that sort in mind.
Question:
It should be easier on your part to do that since you are not
operating from a theory dominating point of view. Instead, you want to
explain something . . . with any means available so as to make sense
out of it so that the process could be repeated and evaluated. . . .
Dr.
Graves:
You have to understand one thing about me. . . . and that is
when I start anything . . . . I’m an ornery cuss. I believe that no
one else knows anything about it. I don’t want to know what any one
else knows. I won’t read the literature to know something about
anyone else. I almost got kicked out of college a dozen times for
that. If I want to know something about something . . . I’m going to
get my own facts and not waste a lot of time. It would take all the
fun out of an experiment to find out what they’ve already found out
in the field. I’d rather not find out what the guy had found out 100
years ago and then find it out myself. This shows what system I
operate under.
{Lunch
break – then the afternoon session begins . . . . . . . . . . . . .
}
Dr.
Graves:
The first thing that I should bring to your attention as we
begin to move into the afternoon program is that one can begin to get
a feel for this systems approach, of at least the forces of D-Q, E-R,
F-S and G-T by taking the quantitative psychometric data that I have
and this time – reading down the column. As one reads down the
columns one can begin to draw a picture of . . .wait! Let me say one
or two things more. . .
As a result of the work that I did, I had these systems of
behavior that I now refer to as the C-P, D-Q, E-R, F-S, G-T and H-U
systems. Obviously there are lower level systems of behavior than the
C-P system and though I have not had any of these subjects in my own
research which produced the data along that line, I proceeded to do a
goodly amount of anthropological searching through the literature and
out of that I constructed the A-N and the B-O systems . . . and then I
supported the existence of these systems by subsequently finding in
the literature that the neurological system N (which I talked about
earlier) and the neurological system O did exist.
One of the problems you run into as you try to come by these
data that I used to provide the A-N and B-O systems is that there
seems to be a lack of information coming out of the American
Psychological-Psychiatric scene. Unless you get in contact with what
is going on in other parts of the world, where most people don’t
think like most American psychologists and psychiatrists think, you
don’t come by these data. And you will see that, or you would see if
you had an opportunity to see, the studies that I draw upon that come
out of the
University
of
Montevideo
in
Uruguay
, from
France
,
Germany
, out of
Japan
, an awful lot
of them not from this country. Only recently had anyone in this
country begun to really accept that Hernandez-Peon down in
Montevideo
,
Uruguay
is quite a guy,
or that Gastau {sp?} in
France
is quite a guy,
or that Luria in
Russia
has done some
rather remarkable work.