Question:
In your conceptualization of open systems, I’m just
wondering how you can say something is closed?
Dr.
Graves:
Well, when you get an idea you have to define it, and the
definition of closed person is - one in which the person maintains
his beliefs when the conditions of existence around him change.
Statement:
The overall system that Dr. Graves is talking about is an
open system in that there is no end. He would see levels going on
and people can, depending on certain circumstances, go on. When he
is talking about any particular individual who may be closed,
because of brain damaged or whatever. If you look at these kinds of
things as people climbing levels, some people level off for various
reasons and are closed the rest of their lives at a certain level.
They become closed within this open system. They themselves become
closed down and stay there.
Question:
There must be other criteria than neurological brain
structures since you change his conditions of existence and he does
not change his behavior. You say that something is wrong with the
patient because your techniques did not work. Where does the
responsibility lie. In other words, if you are in absolute closure
or if you just didn’t change the system in the right way to
produce the changes in openness for the patient to change what can
you do?
Dr.
Graves:
We certainly have, as far as current knowledge is concerned,
absolute programs. You can’t start out with the histological
process of differentiation of cells in the brain which have been
arrested over a period of time. Nobody knows how. Now, when it comes
to psychological closure, let’s face it. If we really get to be
honest with ourselves, as I said in the beginning of this,
psychotherapy is in a mess. We’re not terribly successful.
That’s a rough, tough problem. I’m suggesting that possibly one
of the reasons why we’ve had problems of the kind you’ve
mentioned is that in our attempt to bring about change, that is . .
. from closure to openness so that the person can grow, we haven’t
been using the right therapy and the right therapist. And therefore,
we’ve exacerbated the problem of closure. And maybe this will help
us to cast it aside. And then, maybe, it will tell us what more we
have to learn about what I believe is a very, very difficult task
and that is taking a psychologically closed person and opening them
up.
I must say to you that I’ve questioned many times whether
we should attempt to take a psychologically closed person and open
him up. I’m not so sure that if a person has a certain set of
beliefs - that no other human beings in their way of life would
think would be beliefs - can say that the person would be better off
with a different set of beliefs, namely, their set of beliefs.
Question:
It does seem to be an odd situation where someone’s
behavior gets him into prison that has the problem of rehabilitation
and your system of operation simply is not acceptable so you have to
use controls to keep them out of society. In a sense, trying to open
up the systems. This seems to be in conflict with saying that if a
person is closed, he stays closed. I personally don’t think that
the best system would be to take these people and to isolate
them.
Dr.
Graves:
Let me give you a specific example of a specific young man
that I have in a specific prison in the state of
Virginia
at the
present time who is closed down at the D-Q level. He had no one in
this world. He is all alone. He was in a state of dependency upon
authority, as you find in the person in the D-Q system. He has the
potentiality of opening up. He is now 27 years old. He has spent 18
of his last 27 years in one or another kind of delinquent or
criminal institution. And now he has found in this institution a
father figure he reveres who treats him precise ly the way he wants.
For the first time in 27 years, this guy feels right about himself.
Now, if I start trying to change him I’ll be throwing him
into the outside world, able to stand on his own feet but with no
friends. I have a guy who is pretty happy. My position is that the
organization had better find some way to keep this guy so that his
sentence never ends because if they turn him loose outside, and keep
him in that closed state, there is going to be trouble.